Author Topic: Wind farm proposals in the Neath Port Talbot area  (Read 2681 times)

Offline SteveJ

  • SWWSC Sites Officer
  • Committee Officer
  • ****
  • Posts: 307
  • Airtime: 500 Hours +
  • Glider Type: Paraglider
  • Pilot Rating: Pilot
Re: Wind farm proposals in the Neath Port Talbot area
« Reply #14 on: January 24, 2009, 17:19:25 PM »
Dates for the same exhibition next week are:

Old Town Hall, Neath   Thurs 29th January
Sports Centre, Cymmer  Sat 31st January

Opening times: 11am to 8:30pm

Offline gareth.pawan

  • Club Member
  • **
  • Posts: 161
  • Airtime: 50-100 Hours
  • Glider Type: Other
  • Pilot Rating: Club Pilot
Re: Wind farm proposals in the Neath Port Talbot area
« Reply #13 on: January 24, 2009, 14:08:30 PM »
Thanks for that. It is good to get new information about how energy is generated and what might be the best and only viable options available to us. Windpower stations just don't seem to hack it and really do industrialize what is and should be, wild unspoilt upland countryside. We are as a nation incredibly wasteful with our use of energy and Andy's point about being more careful in how and what we do personally really does matter. When you pass Curry's with all the T.V's and electrical goods blazing away day and night not to mention street lights everywhere it does makes you think. Someone once mentioned that domestic energy tariffs should be fixed at a set rate for each individual and once you use more than a certain amount- the rates would increase sharply. That would certainly focus all our minds on what we use and perhaps help prevent the need for subsidised Wind power stations altogether.

Offline CrashandBurn

  • *
  • Posts: 25
Re: Wind farm proposals in the Neath Port Talbot area
« Reply #12 on: January 24, 2009, 02:38:19 AM »
As someone working in the generation business, I think you need some facts to add to your decision-making toolkit.
Where I work (you can see it from Nant-y-Moel) we have three 'steam generator'  boilers burning a combination of coal, woodchip and elephant grass in each. Each generator set produces 650 Megawatts. Just think how many windmills that would need to be constructed and operated to replace that one power station.

The boiler temperature is around 600 degrees C with an operational pressure in excess of 300 psi. Very expensive pipework made of high-melting point 'Chrome Molly' is used for the boiler pipes: even so, large sections of this pipework needs replacing after every three years of operation. Traditionally, summer months have been used for the necessary repair work on one of the sets, and this is happening at every power station. In older days this would have been the period of lower electrical consumption, but this is no longer the case thanks to the introduction of air-conditioning and the surge in use of personal computers both at home and at work. The time when air-conditioning use peaks is during periods of high pressure, which is also the time when there's little or no wind, so wind-farms only make sense in terms of international enviromental targets (hence subsidies to allow non-competitve plant (ie. windfarms) to compete in the Pool (the grid market).

The reason that nuclear power is back on the negotiating table is that we simply don't have a choice - we need to utilise every form of power generation if our infrastructure is to avoid failing. The company I work for is also in the wind turbine game but has opted for coastal water siting as the only option that allows enough turbines to be erected to make even a slight 'dent' in the shortfall of generating plant. What Nuon are doing isn't going to scratch the surface in terms of need, so I don't understand the economics except in terms of grants and generating subsidies. In an unsubsidised market, these operations simply wouldn't be able to win a period-of-supply contract except at an operational loss.

Regarding wave and tidal power, wave power is a non-starter on economic grounds and the industry has turned its back on it for that reason. There are arguments in support of the viability of tidal power but the construction of, say, the Severn Barrage would cost hundreds of billions, use thousands of terrawatts of energy to construct, and prove a blight on the landscape of SE Wales and Avon for over twenty years during its construction.

For now, the only immediate future in terms of large scale power generation is steam turbines, and that means burning fossils fuels or heating water close to fusion reactions. Everything else is simply pie in the sky. We're also a very long way from fission - if we ever get there.

I'm not trying to change anyones' minds in terms of ideals, but place down some hard truths. I hope it adds to your arsenal of arguments counter to windfarm expansion. I wrote a paper on this for my university during the privatisation of the industry in 1991, and the overall conclusions still hold true nearly twenty years on.
Gliding with an engine is like fishing with dynamite.

Offline AndyH

  • *
  • Posts: 259
  • Airtime: 0-50 Hours
  • Glider Type: Non-Flyer
  • Make of glider: nozone
  • Pilot Rating: Elementary Pilot
Re: Wind farm proposals in the Neath Port Talbot area
« Reply #11 on: January 23, 2009, 14:42:42 PM »
Oh well Steve,Ivor and myself all attended yesterdays information day at Tonmawr together.We were asked to sign in on entry,then issued with a marker pen each, and were then pointed in the direction of some 6ft high information boards arranged in a zig-zag manner by an English employee of Nuon who admitted that she would be unable to answer any technical questions and that we were to keep these for the technical guys we would find on the other side of the information boards(oh and by the way the marker pens were for us to write our comments regarding the proposed wind farm development on to the end information board).I personally didn't write any comments, although 95% of the comments weren't favourable, one person even requested the possibility of Tonmawr receiving a swimming pool from the government instead of a wind farm, which makes perfect sense with the current obesity problem in Wales, and would probably save the government more money in health care fees in the long run.
     After reading through the statistics of how wonderful this wind farm was going to be for the environment and how much electricity it was going to generate(whatever) we arrived at the technical guys to pose a few questions for example:-

Q) Where exactly would they be positioned and how many would there be?

A) We will be positioning them 600-700m from the edge of the hill so that the people low down in the valley won't be able to see them and at the moment they believe the erection of between 80 and a 100 turbines would be enough on the Rhigos alone, but they are also hoping to erect an unknown number on the other side of our ridge at Seven Sisters.

Q) How tall will they be to the tip of blade?

A) 120m or 360'.

Q) How many jobs will the development create, and where will the turbines be manufactured?

A) During the construction over a period of 24-30months it will create 200ish jobs, and the manufacture of the turbines will probably take place in Nuon's home country of Holland(where most of the workforce will probably come from too),and after completion the development will then be able to sustain the huge workforce of 20 local people, how good is that for the Welsh economy during these hard times.

Q) Over what period of time would you expect the windfarm to pay for itself in the event of it performing to it's estimated efficiency.

A) What do you mean, I've got one in my back garden that cost £12,000.00 and it generates enough domestic electricity for the family home, and more for me to sell to the grid(clearly this guy and his family are obviously very conscious about their carbon footprint), but they should pay for themselves in 10yrs over a 25yr lifespan.

Q)How did you get here today and who did you come with?(The guy that we spoke to was from Cornwall so I thought I'd ask him how he'd travelled as he was so environmentaly friendly).

A)By car and alone.(there were 6 employees of Nuon present, 5 from England and I bet none of them car shared to get there.Bear in mind that there are going to be another 2 of these information nights for them to travel to, and they are telling us that we must be more energy efficient.Steve,Ivor and myself car shared to attend and we only have to go once :?)

Q) Will there be much pollution?

A) No, that's why we're positioning them up on the mountain.......
WE INTERUPT) What about visual pollution?
A) .....so that the people living in the valley below don't hear them and won't be able to see them......
WE INTERUPT AGAIN) But surely the reason that tourists walk and ride bicycles on the mountains is for the peace and tranquility, not to come and admire 80-100 wind turbines.

     It was at this point that we realised he was just a salesman and nowhere near qualified enough to call himself a technical advisor, and so we allowed ourselves to be moved on to the final stage of our INFORMATION NIGHT which was a computer simulation of how wonderful the windfarm would look to tourists when they come to visit the beautiful mountainside that we harp on about.(Only once the tourists will come, and after seeing what we've allowed to happen not many will return, especially if future wind farm developments get the go ahead).
     Last night I went to bed feeling lied to and betrayed by a Welsh Assembly that clearly don't really give a [censored] about Wales' tourism industry and really are more interested in making quick and easy money from european grants instead of looking after an area that boasts a world top 10 destination for mountain biking, after a lot of hard work, which could have it's reputation destroyed overnight by greed.

     I woke up this morning, watched the news, and was informed that Britain was now in recession(like we didn't already know), so changed the channel to BBC Parliament, where low and behold they were showing a tourism debate from the House of Lords attended by a total of 15 MP's.....yes just 15 of the people that decide what happens in our country.I watched and listened with my jaw on the floor as I heard figures of £85 billion profit in 2008, expected to rise to over £100billion by 2012 due to the olympics(these are colossal amounts of money for the government especially during this financial crisis and they know it)....... tourism creates just over 2million jobs in the UK this figure includes hotel staff, manufacture of beds and bedding,etc that's apparently 7% of the workforce.......domestic and overseas visitors paid £44million in tax alone last year, that's enough funding for 30,000 nurses........it is at the moment the 5th largest industry in the UK, but it's position is expected to change over the next year to the 4th or even 3rd largest industry in the UK, and the Welsh Assembly are going to f*** it up for us big time if they continue with these greedy get rich quick schemes, because in welsh terms I would place tourism as our largest industry at the moment and certainly not a industry that should be damaged in any way.........there is also a 40-1 promotional return on tourism, meaning that for every £1 the government puts in the tourist industry makes £40.The UK has the 4th strongest tourist brand in the world, and I know that tourists will not want to visit Wales to see wind farms, and now is the time to capitalise on tourism due to the strength of the pound, it means that this year and for the next few Britain and Wales should have their best years ever for domestic and overseas visitors, and who knows the figures could exceed the welsh assembly's predicted amounts and may even make them realise how greedy they are being, and instead of building windfarms to get the forestry commision out of the [censored] they would be able to use tourists money to put back into an already successful industry, that will exist forever and not into a weather dependant windfarm industry.My opinion is that as we are an island use the water that we are surrounded by this way we are also guaranteed the energy not like a windfarm.
    It was also mentioned in the House of Lords today that the Queen also mentioned in her Christmas speech how important tourism is for the UK and that we need to do all we can to promote this at home and abroad, my reason for stating this is that HRH Prince of Wales will be Patron of British Tourism Week this year March 10-18th, maybe he could call in to one of Nuon's 'Information Nights' to cast his eye over these plans and he will probably agree with me when I call them architectural monstrosities :-D
     Hope it's flyable soon, see you on the hill. 

     
"There is but one mode by which man can possess in perpetuity all the happiness which his nature is capable of enjoying, - that is by the union and co-operation of ALL for the benefit of EACH."

Offline Norris

  • Club Member
  • **
  • Posts: 112
  • Airtime: 100-500 Hours
  • Glider Type: Paraglider & Hang glider
  • Pilot Rating: Pilot
Re: Wind farm proposals in the Neath Port Talbot area
« Reply #10 on: January 09, 2009, 21:46:58 PM »
If a wind farm is built that will generate say 10 megawatts (10 million watts), then it stands to reason that an alternative form of generator to supply the same amount of power must also be installed for when the wind is either too light or too strong, so why bother with the wind power in the first place? Tidal power will always be there so why not use that?? I don't mean windmills in the sea, but some device that harnesses the power of the tidal water direct. If the 10 Mwatt wind farm is built, how long must it run at maximum capability for before it puts back into the power system the amount of power it took to build and install it??
The bird of time has but a little way to flutter..............and Lo, the bird is on the wing.

Skype name is norris411

Offline AndyH

  • *
  • Posts: 259
  • Airtime: 0-50 Hours
  • Glider Type: Non-Flyer
  • Make of glider: nozone
  • Pilot Rating: Elementary Pilot
Re: Wind farm proposals in the Neath Port Talbot area
« Reply #9 on: January 09, 2009, 18:04:43 PM »
Try and keep it to yourself Martin.......I only bruised my little toe when it happened.

It's my own fault I should have landed when it got dark, instead I just carried on and managed to fly 300kms, 40kms of which were after I hit the wind turbine at 4:00am.

I eventually landed at 5:00am and flew my private jet home.
 
"There is but one mode by which man can possess in perpetuity all the happiness which his nature is capable of enjoying, - that is by the union and co-operation of ALL for the benefit of EACH."

Offline MartinCowley

  • *
  • Posts: 41
  • Airtime: 100-500 Hours
  • Glider Type: Paraglider
  • Pilot Rating: Club Pilot
Re: Wind farm proposals in the Neath Port Talbot area
« Reply #8 on: January 09, 2009, 15:02:12 PM »
must be paragliding fans

Andy, you realise of course that you're a prime suspect after your attack on the Turkish power grid. :)

Offline AndyH

  • *
  • Posts: 259
  • Airtime: 0-50 Hours
  • Glider Type: Non-Flyer
  • Make of glider: nozone
  • Pilot Rating: Elementary Pilot
Re: Wind farm proposals in the Neath Port Talbot area
« Reply #7 on: January 09, 2009, 11:00:58 AM »
I totally agree guys, so take a look at this clip from yesterdays BBC News......I want to get to know these aliens, they must be paragliding fans, either that or object to the destruction the Welsh mountainside http://media.smh.com.au/?category=Breaking%20News&rid=45103
I like the way that the local residents blame aliens for the destruction of one the turbines......maybe the destruction of an entire windfarm on a Welsh mountainside could also be blamed on aliens.  :evil:
« Last Edit: January 09, 2009, 11:13:45 AM by andyh »
"There is but one mode by which man can possess in perpetuity all the happiness which his nature is capable of enjoying, - that is by the union and co-operation of ALL for the benefit of EACH."

Offline gareth.pawan

  • Club Member
  • **
  • Posts: 161
  • Airtime: 50-100 Hours
  • Glider Type: Other
  • Pilot Rating: Club Pilot
Re: Wind farm proposals in the Neath Port Talbot area -gentle rant!
« Reply #6 on: January 09, 2009, 10:46:01 AM »
As a matter of interest, we moved to Neath just below the existing Wind Station in 1987. We didn't have mains electricity so decided to "walk the talk" and fitted our own Wind generator. We had it for 7 years and not to put too fine a point on it, it was absolute crap, barely able to run one or two lights despite its ideal location and high wind speeds - remember the storms and hurricane of that period? We then went to The Alternative Energy Centre in midwales for advice
and discovered that despite their preaching of the message, they actually had two largish diesel generators powering the energy demands of their flourishing restaurant and cafeteria business!
Sadly it seems, Wind farms have as much to do with political posturing, the need for governments to look "green" and to provide city investors with a sure fire way to get grants and make easy money as much as a way of tackling climate change.
Finally, has anyone noticed that developers always say: "It is expected or the proposed development should generate xyz megawatts of electricity?" It's interesting that they haven't published the actual figures detailing the actual power output of the Windstation opposite B.C. It's only a personal view but to my mind the new proposals are an unneccessary and ugly industrialisation of what is beautiful upland welsh countryside.
A wood chip plant is also a source of renewable energy, they provide more jobs, supply more electricity and would not despoil the countryside like massive wind stations do.
gareth, ex-believer.

Offline Norris

  • Club Member
  • **
  • Posts: 112
  • Airtime: 100-500 Hours
  • Glider Type: Paraglider & Hang glider
  • Pilot Rating: Pilot
Re: Wind farm proposals in the Neath Port Talbot area
« Reply #5 on: January 08, 2009, 22:07:45 PM »
Yes and look at the fuss in Europe now that the gas pipeline can be used as a weapon. How long before we in this country are being held to ransom in the same way by foreign companies who now own some of our basic utility company's? Many so called third world countries forbid foreigners from owning businesses or even properties in their countries, it is a shame that our government does not attach such importance to our own country's affairs.
The bird of time has but a little way to flutter..............and Lo, the bird is on the wing.

Skype name is norris411

Offline Nick Roberts

  • SWWSC Treasurer
  • Committee Officer
  • ****
  • Posts: 567
  • Airtime: 500 Hours +
  • Glider Type: Paraglider
  • Pilot Rating: Advanced Pilot
Re: Wind farm proposals in the Neath Port Talbot area
« Reply #4 on: January 08, 2009, 21:09:09 PM »
Often foreign Big Business taking advantage of government grants to help meet targets for renewable energy!

Offline Norris

  • Club Member
  • **
  • Posts: 112
  • Airtime: 100-500 Hours
  • Glider Type: Paraglider & Hang glider
  • Pilot Rating: Pilot
Re: Wind farm proposals in the Neath Port Talbot area
« Reply #3 on: January 07, 2009, 22:38:24 PM »
Wind farms are such a waste of resources, especially on a small island where tidal power is such an obvious solution. They may be powered by wind but they are fuelled by big business.
The bird of time has but a little way to flutter..............and Lo, the bird is on the wing.

Skype name is norris411

Offline Nick Roberts

  • SWWSC Treasurer
  • Committee Officer
  • ****
  • Posts: 567
  • Airtime: 500 Hours +
  • Glider Type: Paraglider
  • Pilot Rating: Advanced Pilot
Re: Wind farm proposals in the Neath Port Talbot area
« Reply #2 on: January 07, 2009, 17:27:26 PM »
Hi Steve

Such a huge windfarm  over the high ground behind the Rhigos is a grim scenario but perhaps if they put so many up there  then the  scheme proposed for Bryncaws may be  deemed a few turbines too many?    :roll:

Offline SteveJ

  • SWWSC Sites Officer
  • Committee Officer
  • ****
  • Posts: 307
  • Airtime: 500 Hours +
  • Glider Type: Paraglider
  • Pilot Rating: Pilot
Wind farm proposals in the Neath Port Talbot area
« Reply #1 on: January 07, 2009, 10:34:49 AM »
Yet again some new proposals for wind farms in our neck of the woods.
Consultation meetings/information days are at the following venues on the dates shown:

Tonmawr Rugby Club Thursday 22 Jan 09
Neath Old Town Hall  Thursday 29 Jan 09
Cymmer Sports Centre Saturday 31 Jan 09

Opening times:  11:00 am to 8:30 pm

I'll probably attend the Tonmawr venue.